COMMENT
Id love to see you debunk Paul Dorgan's 6th video session video at his youtube channel on the pre-wrath rapture. He easily debunks pretrib, id love see your rebuttal, Lee! Much love brother.
ANSWER
I have read or watched several dozen distinct pre-wrath presentations over the past 35 years. All have the same backbone --- the rapture happens after the opening of the sixth seal with the signs in the heavens and before or at the opening of the seventh seal. If a person actually examines every passage in the Bible that presents the signs in the heavens, they will discover that those signs happen at the second coming, not sometime during the seventieth week. This is FATAL to every presentation of the pre-wrath rapture. This demands that the seals, trumpets, and bowls overlap with the seals and the series all ending at the second coming.
Id love to see you debunk Paul Dorgan's 6th video session video at his youtube channel on the pre-wrath rapture. He easily debunks pretrib, id love see your rebuttal, Lee! Much love brother.
ANSWER
I have read or watched several dozen distinct pre-wrath presentations over the past 35 years. All have the same backbone --- the rapture happens after the opening of the sixth seal with the signs in the heavens and before or at the opening of the seventh seal. If a person actually examines every passage in the Bible that presents the signs in the heavens, they will discover that those signs happen at the second coming, not sometime during the seventieth week. This is FATAL to every presentation of the pre-wrath rapture. This demands that the seals, trumpets, and bowls overlap with the seals and the series all ending at the second coming.
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COMMENT
“The powers of the heavens shall be shaken” has nothing to do with planets moving. This is specifically related to “War in Heaven”, when the angels are cast down.
RESPONSE
The angels are cast down in the middle of the week. The powers of the heavens are shaken at the second coming when the sun, moon, stars, and planets are affected.
“The powers of the heavens shall be shaken” has nothing to do with planets moving. This is specifically related to “War in Heaven”, when the angels are cast down.
RESPONSE
The angels are cast down in the middle of the week. The powers of the heavens are shaken at the second coming when the sun, moon, stars, and planets are affected.
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COMMENT
Mmmm...Brother Lee.....
How can someone, the same person, I mean, proclaim: "Take The Plain Statements of Scripture at Face Value"
and, at the same time say that " For as Jonas was THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS in the heart of the earth" Means whatever ELSE, different completely and absolutely OTHER than "THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS"????????
What should we do with You brother Lee? I mean, What should we think about You, brother Lee, and about your integrity and loyalty?
MY RESPONSE
The question you need to ask is what does the Bible mean by "three days and three nights"? Idioms must be taken as idioms. If you take idioms in stiltedly literal senses, you are just as wrong as those who allegorize things intended to be taken literally. Please note that the Bible makes it very clear that Jesus rose ON THE THIRD DAY. If he rose on the third day, he couldn't have risen on the fourth day, that is, after three full days and nights. The Bible also uses the three days idiom in Esther, and Esther enters the king's presence on the third day. The Bible is its own interpreter. And taking the Bible at face value includes taking the Bible's own interpretations of its statements at face value and ignoring the hyperspiritual claims of those who force lines of Scripture to fit their own agenda and reject the Bible's commentary on the matter as lies from hell.
Mmmm...Brother Lee.....
How can someone, the same person, I mean, proclaim: "Take The Plain Statements of Scripture at Face Value"
and, at the same time say that " For as Jonas was THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS in the heart of the earth" Means whatever ELSE, different completely and absolutely OTHER than "THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS"????????
What should we do with You brother Lee? I mean, What should we think about You, brother Lee, and about your integrity and loyalty?
MY RESPONSE
The question you need to ask is what does the Bible mean by "three days and three nights"? Idioms must be taken as idioms. If you take idioms in stiltedly literal senses, you are just as wrong as those who allegorize things intended to be taken literally. Please note that the Bible makes it very clear that Jesus rose ON THE THIRD DAY. If he rose on the third day, he couldn't have risen on the fourth day, that is, after three full days and nights. The Bible also uses the three days idiom in Esther, and Esther enters the king's presence on the third day. The Bible is its own interpreter. And taking the Bible at face value includes taking the Bible's own interpretations of its statements at face value and ignoring the hyperspiritual claims of those who force lines of Scripture to fit their own agenda and reject the Bible's commentary on the matter as lies from hell.
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COMMENT
After John was put in prison Jesus' first words were "The TIME IS FULFILLED, the Kingdom of God is at hand, repent and believe the gospel." Jesus was telling us that the final week was being fulfilled, not just some generic time, Daniels time. You have no right to split those Seventy Weeks into some rubber band theory and attribute them to some future antichrist.
RESPONSE
Saying that the kingdom is at hand is not the same thing as saying that the Lord and his disciples were already in the seventieth week. This is atrocious theology and grammar that only Catholics and half-Catholics can embrace. Congratulations on caving in to Catholic theology.
Please note that Jesus performed his earthly ministry during the 69th week, not the 70th. The grammar of Daniel 9:24-27 has the Lord crucified AFTER the 69th week, and has the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 BEFORE the coming of the king of the people who overthrew Jerusalem, even the man we call antichrist. The passage absolutely demands a window of time between the 69th week and the 70th week. It doesn't tell us how long that window is. That we must gather from elsewhere.
Further, Daniel 9:24-27 has the sin problem completely fixed at the end of the 70th week, and everlasting righteousness brought in. Unless you have intentionally poked your eyes out, the sin problem is not fixed and everlasting righteousness has not been introduced. The world has been filled with iniquity for the past 1990 plus years. Paying for man's redemption on the cross so sins can be forgiven introduces blood justification for the believer. It does not fill the world with righteousness. "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." If the kingdom has already come, then heaven is full of sin and hypocrisy.
After John was put in prison Jesus' first words were "The TIME IS FULFILLED, the Kingdom of God is at hand, repent and believe the gospel." Jesus was telling us that the final week was being fulfilled, not just some generic time, Daniels time. You have no right to split those Seventy Weeks into some rubber band theory and attribute them to some future antichrist.
RESPONSE
Saying that the kingdom is at hand is not the same thing as saying that the Lord and his disciples were already in the seventieth week. This is atrocious theology and grammar that only Catholics and half-Catholics can embrace. Congratulations on caving in to Catholic theology.
Please note that Jesus performed his earthly ministry during the 69th week, not the 70th. The grammar of Daniel 9:24-27 has the Lord crucified AFTER the 69th week, and has the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 BEFORE the coming of the king of the people who overthrew Jerusalem, even the man we call antichrist. The passage absolutely demands a window of time between the 69th week and the 70th week. It doesn't tell us how long that window is. That we must gather from elsewhere.
Further, Daniel 9:24-27 has the sin problem completely fixed at the end of the 70th week, and everlasting righteousness brought in. Unless you have intentionally poked your eyes out, the sin problem is not fixed and everlasting righteousness has not been introduced. The world has been filled with iniquity for the past 1990 plus years. Paying for man's redemption on the cross so sins can be forgiven introduces blood justification for the believer. It does not fill the world with righteousness. "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." If the kingdom has already come, then heaven is full of sin and hypocrisy.
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The Rapture fits perfectly with Jesus’ statement: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” It comes at an hour that we do not expect, during a time of relative normality just as in the days of Noah.
Some will say, Context! They point back to Matthew 24:35, where Jesus says, “Heaven and earth shall pass away.” They argue that the “day and hour” is referring to the day when the heavens and earth pass away.
But if that is referring to the Second Coming, you can count the timing from the start of the week or from the middle of the week. And if someone puts it at the end of the Millennium, you can count the thousand years to the end of the Millennium.
The Second Coming can't be the day and hour that no man knows. It has to refer to the front end of the coming of the Son of Man-the Rapture.
At that time, the world will not be expecting judgment. Everything will be going on in relative normality.
“Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.”
Some will say, Context! They point back to Matthew 24:35, where Jesus says, “Heaven and earth shall pass away.” They argue that the “day and hour” is referring to the day when the heavens and earth pass away.
But if that is referring to the Second Coming, you can count the timing from the start of the week or from the middle of the week. And if someone puts it at the end of the Millennium, you can count the thousand years to the end of the Millennium.
The Second Coming can't be the day and hour that no man knows. It has to refer to the front end of the coming of the Son of Man-the Rapture.
At that time, the world will not be expecting judgment. Everything will be going on in relative normality.
“Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.”
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To rightly understand relative normality, we have to consider the past five centuries, not present America, not America prior to 2021, not America from 1950 to 2000. Relative normality includes both World Wars, the Civil War, the Irish potato famine, the Dust Bowl days and the Great Depression, the market crashes of 1987, 1999-2000, 2008, the mini Ice Age, Krakatoa and the missing summer, the Chicago and Peshtigo fires, the New Madrid earthquake, the brutality of the Iran Curtain and the Bamboo Curtain, the evils of Islam, the Spanish Inquisition, and a thousand other evils from around the world during this era. Once we understand the high water marks for hard times during relative normality, then we can appreciate what the world is going to face during the tribulation. They will go far beyond anything we have seen in the past five hundred years.
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Bob Ulrich's 70th birthday. Stewardesses delivering drinks and snacks. Mondo and LA. Karen and Angela (Mondo's wifel).
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COMMENT
Yeshua said i pray that you do not take them out of the world but that you keep them from the evil one! That evil one is the antichrist.
ANSWER
He did say that. But the evil one is the devil, not the antichrist. This is God's operating principle for the duration of the church age (the time of Christ's patience). When the time of Christ's patience is over, and the day of the Lord begins to dawn, the Lord's operating principle changes. He removes the church from the world and returns to Israel to finish his plan with Israel.
Yeshua said i pray that you do not take them out of the world but that you keep them from the evil one! That evil one is the antichrist.
ANSWER
He did say that. But the evil one is the devil, not the antichrist. This is God's operating principle for the duration of the church age (the time of Christ's patience). When the time of Christ's patience is over, and the day of the Lord begins to dawn, the Lord's operating principle changes. He removes the church from the world and returns to Israel to finish his plan with Israel.
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COMMENT
it can be very difficult to see where that thin grey line is.... scripture says: this great tribulation is meant to be a testimony for us and a testimony against them... what testimony would there be in not enduring exactly what we were warned we would have to endure for His name's sake?.. we all want an easy escape, but since when was the gospel the easy gospel?
ANSWER
There is no thin grey line here. The Bible is clear that God returns to dealing with national Israel during the seventieth week to finish what he started with Israel. The Bible is clear that the church will be removed from the world when the time of Christ's patience closes and the hour of trial (the day of the Lord) begins. The real issue is that men either don't see the distinction between Israel and the church, or they blur the distinction. The rapture is a tactical extraction of soldiers that have finished their mission, not a dereliction of duty. The God of all grace will give national Israel a second chance to receive the Messiah that she rejected. She can't obtain her OT promises apart from the new covenant in Jesus blood.
it can be very difficult to see where that thin grey line is.... scripture says: this great tribulation is meant to be a testimony for us and a testimony against them... what testimony would there be in not enduring exactly what we were warned we would have to endure for His name's sake?.. we all want an easy escape, but since when was the gospel the easy gospel?
ANSWER
There is no thin grey line here. The Bible is clear that God returns to dealing with national Israel during the seventieth week to finish what he started with Israel. The Bible is clear that the church will be removed from the world when the time of Christ's patience closes and the hour of trial (the day of the Lord) begins. The real issue is that men either don't see the distinction between Israel and the church, or they blur the distinction. The rapture is a tactical extraction of soldiers that have finished their mission, not a dereliction of duty. The God of all grace will give national Israel a second chance to receive the Messiah that she rejected. She can't obtain her OT promises apart from the new covenant in Jesus blood.
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QUESTION
What about translations older than KJV that say "departyng" instead of apostasy or falling away in 2 Thess. 2:3?
ANSWER
Several considerations here.
One. It is not true that all of the oldest English versions feature "departure" rather than apostasy or falling away class readings. The Wycliffe manuscripts use "dissension" more often than "departure", and some have "dissension" in the text and "departure" in parentheses, indicating the alternate reading. Further, the Runner of the World (c. 1300) which features much of the NT in paraphrase, renders 2 Thess. 2:3 as "dissension."
Two. In Middle English the word "departure" meant "dissension, division, apostasy." In the late 1500s it started migrating in the direction of the modern meaning of physical departure. The English Bible versions then started using translations like "falling away, apostasy, rebellion" to maintain the sense of division or dissension. So the translation change wasn't to teach a new doctrine but to maintain the old one.
Three. The English versions that feature "departure" are filled with introductory notes both to the book and to the second chapter, along with marginal notes and footnotes, which clarify that the translators and editors used "departure" in the sense of "the departure of the most from the faith." They regarded words like "apostasy," "rebellion," and "falling away" as synonyms for departure.
This is a classic example where a cool theory uses a tiny handful of selective evidence and tramples on a trainload of evidence that is fatal to the theory.
What about translations older than KJV that say "departyng" instead of apostasy or falling away in 2 Thess. 2:3?
ANSWER
Several considerations here.
One. It is not true that all of the oldest English versions feature "departure" rather than apostasy or falling away class readings. The Wycliffe manuscripts use "dissension" more often than "departure", and some have "dissension" in the text and "departure" in parentheses, indicating the alternate reading. Further, the Runner of the World (c. 1300) which features much of the NT in paraphrase, renders 2 Thess. 2:3 as "dissension."
Two. In Middle English the word "departure" meant "dissension, division, apostasy." In the late 1500s it started migrating in the direction of the modern meaning of physical departure. The English Bible versions then started using translations like "falling away, apostasy, rebellion" to maintain the sense of division or dissension. So the translation change wasn't to teach a new doctrine but to maintain the old one.
Three. The English versions that feature "departure" are filled with introductory notes both to the book and to the second chapter, along with marginal notes and footnotes, which clarify that the translators and editors used "departure" in the sense of "the departure of the most from the faith." They regarded words like "apostasy," "rebellion," and "falling away" as synonyms for departure.
This is a classic example where a cool theory uses a tiny handful of selective evidence and tramples on a trainload of evidence that is fatal to the theory.
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